Young Women ONLY in Films, Please

Crossfire: The Mutant Debates is a series of back-and-forth e-mail discussions between the MRFH writers on various movie topics.

KYLE

Justin, I bring this up to you because I don't know where else to turn, and I'm not sure who else has the capacity of cinematic knowledge necessary to understand what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is young girls/women in film. More specifically, how they're all I want to see.

What really pushed this topic to the forefront of my arguably sexist, misogynistic, and shallow mind (let's just get those qualifiers out of the way now so it's clear I'm self-aware of what a 7-letter word I am) was a morning showing of Dead Calm on one of the movie channels. I was perusing the schedule to see if Anchorman was on so I could tape it, and when I noticed Dead Calm was on, so I clicked on it just to see what was going on. I think I've watched the whole thing, but maybe not, and anyway it was kind of an effective thriller (Die Hard on a boat) with young Billy Zane, young Nicole Kidman, and young Nicole Kidman nudity. Outta sight!

That got me to thinking: you know, Nicole Kidman only really "lit my fire" (go Jim go!) back in "the day." Ever since, as her forehead grows larger, her eyebrows and nose grow pointier, and her overall appearance becomes completely frightening (as opposed to "somewhat frightening"), I find myself unwilling to watch any movie she does. Even The Peacemaker, a slightly-underrated flick though it tanked for appropriate reasons, suffers for her in a leading role. And I find myself wondering: would that film have been better if Rachel McAdams (who was probably 15 or something when it filmed) or Rachel Bilson (who was probably 12) had starred opposite George Clooney? and why wasn't there any room for female surfing to enter into the plot?

Maybe I'm scarred from my years of allegiance to the James Bond series, where no women other than Moneypenny and Brosnan era's M appeared in the same role (Maud Adams did great, but as separate roles and she was appropriately aged to match Roger Moore in Octopussy) and we all seemed to accept that Bond was able to trade in and trade up for each new covert mission. Or maybe I'm just that shallow and sexist narcissist my late couple dates have accused me of being, and to play into my grotesque sense of reality I subsequently only want to see women under the age of 30 fill all female roles in films, even those of "grandmother" and "mother nature."

I'm kind of grossly exaggerating the whole situation. But then again, I can't think of many films where the relative youth and beauty of the female lead(s) didn't play some part in making me enjoy the film. Anchorman might be one of my favorite films if it weren't for my dislike of Christina Applegate; likewise Kate Capshaw helps further tarnish Temple of Doom and Jessica Simpson boredom-inducing "perfect" body doesn't add much to Dukes of Hazzard. Whereas Rachel McAdams and Isla Fisher help send The Wedding Crashers into the stratosphere of greatness, a young Diane Keaton contributes plenty of quirkiness to the greatness of Annie Hall, and if Avril Lavigne (full make-up and sk8r grrrrl persona intact) ever makes films (I think she's doing a voice in an upcoming animated feature) ever makes films, I'll be there with bells on.

So what do you think? Am I just a growth spurt of maturity away from learning to love older women and appreciating their work in movies, or will I be one of those guys who has to sheepishly admit that I've rented Diane Lane's Unfaithful multiple times but never watched more than 10% of the movie, if you catch my drift?

JUSTIN

I swear, if I didn't read past the first couple of sentences, I'd totally peg you for a creepy borderline-pedophiliac, and run away screaming. Please define "young" better, because saying "I want to see more 12-year-old girls prancing about in bikinis" is only going to get MRFH tagged by the FBI child crimes division. Nobody wants that.

However, if you're simply comparing your honest attraction and desire to see younger actresses (18-30) on screen, versus "older" women (31+, or 41+, or however you differentiate between the groups), I'd have to say you're being not just a bit shallow. Are you going to end up as one of those unnerving 50-year-old men who never married and only pant over college-age teenagers because that's your one standard of beauty and attraction — their age? Is it going to be the same for you on film, your brain simply never allowing for older women to be attractive, even if they're good-looking, have an attractive personality, and (quite frankly) act better? Should we simply have a Logan's Run carousel for actresses and euthanize them once they reach a certain age, to prevent them from cluttering screen time best used for younger bubble-headed bimbos?

Even you have to admit that there's a MASSIVE double standard when it comes to the viable movie lifespan of an actor vs. an actress. Actors, good ones, have no upper limit as to when they can appear in pretty much any type of film — Jack Nicholson wins a best actor for a romantic lead in As Good As It Gets at the ripe old age of 119, Morgan Freeman and Robert Redford keep their craggy faces in business with tons of flicks each year, and one-shade-away-from-petrification Sean Connery manages to keep landing ACTION roles with stuff like League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Meanwhile, how many 40+ year-old actresses do you see in lead roles this year? 50+? 60+? Sure, sometimes they come out with an "we're older women making a movie for the older women out there" flick, but nothing extremely mainstream. Sure, they need older women for bit parts like The Disapproving Mother and Cranky Elderly Driver #5, but how many really get to show off their stuff? Have they lost their ability to act — or, more likely, gotten better at acting, as with any trade, but lost their value as screen flesh and are no longer desired by Hollywood and Hollywood's misunderstanding of what we want to see?

KYLE

Okay, I think the problem is this: I'm just not interested in the plights and misadventures of older women, because there are very few films out there detailing what goes down with them (I can think of White Palace and maybe The Divine Ya-Ya Yo-Yo Sisterhood, neither of which I've seen) and because of the whole cultural/societal "norms" that treat women over 30 as lame and done. But they aren't!

Consider TV‘s "The Golden Girls." A bunch of ancient ladies that were hugely entertaining and fun because they did crazy things (like OMG have sex!!!1!!1!!!!) and were interesting, as well as treated with respect. Why can't we see more movies or shows like that?

And while it's largely the fault of our patriarchal society, female actresses play a part by refusing (so it seems) to play into roles that require the admission of ageing and acknowledge the fact that everyone grows old but they don't just shut down after 30.

Two movies also pop into mind here: Star Trek 2: The Wrath of Khan and The Thin Man series. Wrath wouldn't be half as effective if it didn't have at its core all the drama that comes from the Enterprise crew getting older and feeling like they don't belong out in the cosmos, gallivanting among the stars. Kudos to all of them for working with it! (William Shatner jokes about it in "Star Trek Movie Memories," that's pretty interesting if you haven't read it).

And I've barely seen much of "The Thin Man" series but I appreciate that they deal with a MARRIED couple as they solve crimes and have a kid but continue to drink heavily, especially martinis. I fully believe that marriage is a horrible tender trap and that I will only get married for a series of weekends in Vegas in my life, but I appreciate that for some well-matched couples marriage not only makes sense but works as it is supposed to. I wouldn't mind some movies where the leads are married but don't go through any drama or veer near a divorce. Just be a happy married couple. See the first season of "The O.C." to see Peter Gallagher and Kelly Rowan essay a happy rich married couple that vies with the OC kids for being "most interesting on the show."

So old people can make it happen! I just wish they'd try more often.

And just to save a little face, I don't especially like seeing older actors either. I'm not interested in seeing About Schmidt or any older-skewed drama, because I'm fearing getting old so I don't want to see depressing crap about it! I will watch humorous older films, though, so bring on Grumpy Old Men and films starring the corpse of George Burns. Why not?

JUSTIN

So it seems that older actors and actresses can't win with you, is that what you're saying? That if they play to their age and are in movies that deal with age-appropriate issues, it's not something you want to watch; and if they're refusing to acknowledge their age and are playing younger types, you call it "hypocrite" and don't want to watch?

That's called ageism, sonny. It's a dirty word. You have a bias against age, not necessarily a hankering for just young actresses on screen.

Personally, I can definitely find older actresses attractive — Julianne Moore and Jodie Foster are just a couple that leap to mind — and although Nicole Kidman might've appealed to you as a younger lady doing nudity, it's only since she's gotten older that she's been able to land better, more award-worthy roles with some meat to them.

And why do we as a society expect elderly actors to be effectively grumpy circus clowns for us in movies to get us to go see them?

But I did like your point on married couples. I just wrote a review for a romance flick where I noted that there are precious few romantic movies that deal with after "the big kiss" where they finally get together, and hardly any that show a romantically-involved married couple as leads. I think Mr. and Mrs. Smith was refreshing because of that difference, in a way.

Your thoughts?

KYLE

I've enjoyed participating in this, because each new volley fired has opened my eyes a bit to different things I like and don't like. So if this reads somewhat schizophrenically, that's why!

And I'm happy to say I was flipping through the channels the other night and found an excellent example of an older-skewed film that I really do enjoy: Something's Gotta Give. Diane Keaton is excellent (and naked!), Jack Nicholson is excellent, and Keanu Reeves and Amanda Peet are both young and hot. That's right. I'm secure enough to say "Amanda is hot, and so is Keanu. Rrragh!"

A movie about older individuals finding happiness. During the run time, we find out Nicholson has become famous for dating girls decades his junior, and Keaton spends several months dating the Keanu. So it has an awkward kind of message, but those are always the best kind. Because straight-forward and clean-cut is BORING.

I blame this entire point-of-view o' mine on Meg Ryan. Oh yeah. Because when I was a kid I loved When Harry Met Sally and liked Sleepless in Seattle and later grew to appreciate You Got Mail. But it seems that as Tom Hanks aged and grew to use his age to communicate wisdom and a eye-twinkling hint at his younger misadventures, Meg Ryan got all creepy by dating Russell Crowe and making stupid movies and doing nudity when no one, including me, really wanted to see it.

So, one of the older actresses I admired as a young teen kind of crashed and burned (sorry, Meg Ryan fans) and got "weird", the equivalent of the drama goth girl whom you admired on the stage until you saw her eating scabs off her leg for lunch behind the dumpster one day and then could never look at her the same again, because oh, man: she was eating scabs! That's like dried blood and stuff! Gross!

So don't blame me for this situation. It's society and it's culture and it's all the magazines selling youth as the only thing that matters. This is a definite example of you not hating the "player" (me) but instead properly directing your hate to the "game."

It happens to male actors, too.

I read everything. EVERYTHING, especially at bookstores and grocery stores if I can get away with it. And I saw some of the cast of "The OC" on a recent issue of "Teen People" so I picked it up. And it was a "Hottest Actors/Actresses Under 25" issue, so I was reading through and when I got to the page about the OC kids, I was like "Where's Ryan (Ben Mackenzie)?"

Then I read the article, which stated that Ben couldn't be included because he had just turned 26.

I had just turned 26. I couldn't be included. If I sent anything into Teen People, it would be rejected, ridiculed, and sent on to "People." The "old people's" culture magazine.

To quote Darth Vader: "Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!"

So it all comes back to me. Naturally.

I will say that I appreciate the work of older thespians. My beef with About Schmidt is that I think director Alexander Payne is hugely overrated, so it looked like stupid "vacant stares off-screen for multiple minutes = Oscar nod" pseudo-indie junk and that's why I didn't want to watch it. I know Kathy Bates is naked in it. That fact did not play any role in my decision-making process.

Hopefully we'll get some interesting suggestions for films to watch or revisit that deal with natural aging with respect or an interesting angle. That would be helpful.

Ultimately, I just wish that Hollywood sold youth as being carefree and sexually active, and maturity as weighed down by responsibility and dried-up in many aspects of life. Because I know plenty of young people who are weighed down by responsibility and not noticing life passing them by, and I know some older folks (men and women) who are carefree, sexually active, and fun-loving. Life is more diverse than the stupid recycled storylines we keep getting cinematic variations. I guess it's up to people like me to start writing scripts and making that clear. Wish me luck!

JUSTIN

Hollywood needs to sell MORE for young people being sexually active? Excuse me, where do you see them putting the reigns on and saying, "Whoa, buster! That's far too much nudity in this here film! And too much sex appeal, which sells more tickets! We better start showing these kids using condoms and learning about all the horrible STDs that are out there, to be responsible filmmakers!"? And who needs responsibility? Hollywood always loves to teach that, of course!

Hollywood is all about presenting instant gratification, shallow desires, and perpetuating stereotypes and double standards. That's what they do. For them to say that young, sexy and free from worries is the only way to live is for them to be completely unrealistic and harsh to people who are doing good things with their lives but aren't being rewarded for that by what's presented in movies. A more joyful (I'm not going to say "carefree", 'cause that implies no responsibilities whatsoever) life consists of getting to love yourself for who you are and your fellow humans more, and it's no shocker that we see older actors and actresses in film coming to this sort of secure plateau and enjoying it.

Hollywood typically perpetuates the myth that Young Is Fun, and Old Is Boring. This is untrue, false, a lie, and evilly intentioned, to boot. Each stage of your life brings its own fun, freedom and downers, but if anything I personally am loving getting older. I love being a bit wiser, a bit more mature, smarter and able to cross the street without holding my mom's hand. So I point a finger at California and call Hollywood on its falsehood, but even Hollywood is crumbling under its sham and starting to recognize that there's whole new exciting levels in life to portray on film. It just needs to do it more.

I think it's incredibly pandering when a movie features an older actor and then deliberately pairs him up with a much, much younger love interest — to make the older guy seem younger somehow. I think Hollywood doesn't give teenagers enough credit (the smart teens, at least) in thinking they won't want to see anyone over 25 in film, no matter how good they act.

I'm glad you took a look at yourself and challenged yourself (and me) on this, particularly with that film you mentioned. Just... just realize there's a reason why people find Wooderson from Dazed and Confused a creepy fella when he said, "That's what I love about these high school girls, man. I get older, they stay the same age."

Good talk, son! Now let's go play some catch!